(no subject)

Date: 2009-10-20 10:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dmw7.livejournal.com
Is it just me, or does it make you wonder if the Anglicans will have a similar program for Catholics that are annoyed by the Catholic church's refusal to accept gay bishops and women priests?

(no subject)

Date: 2009-10-20 10:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eirias.livejournal.com
Here's the thing, though -- for that to work, I think there'd need to be more barriers in place by default! Catholics are notorious about not letting outsiders participate materially in ceremony, in a way I think fairly unusual for Christian faiths (Mormons of course being an extreme exception). And to Catholics, Anglicans have traditionally been outsiders.

But to Anglicans, Catholics already aren't outsiders, in my understanding. I believe Roman Catholics get to participate fully in Anglican stuff, because Anglicans consider themselves Catholics. So I'm not sure what room the Anglicans have to maneuver here -- they already drew a circle that took the Pope in; they can't make a special one-time offer to his followers in the same way.

I need to check out the Episcopalian-priest blog I used to follow and see what he has to say about this.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-10-20 11:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elwe.livejournal.com
As one of the traditional Anglicans in question, it's not really poaching by Rome - on our side we've been working and praying for years to bring this about. I guess within the poaching analogy it would be like the animal walked up to the hunter and begged repeatedly to get poached.

"Catholics are notorious about not letting outsiders participate materially in ceremony, in a way I think fairly unusual for Christian faiths"

Well, both the Catholics and the Orthodox are very very careful about such things, and their position is the normal one for most of the history of Christianity. The looser approach of most Protestant denominations these days is very much a recent thing.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-10-20 11:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eirias.livejournal.com
Hmm. My understanding has been that the Anglican Communion has worked for years to come back into communion with the Roman Church, or rather to get the Roman Church to see it that way. But this doesn't really look like that to me, the way it's described in the article! It didn't read like J. Random Anglican will be able to show up at a Roman service unannounced and take communion -- but rather that J. Random will be able to take some shortcuts when converting, and will be permitted to hang onto some of the trappings of his old faith too. Am I wrong here? Did the Times present it inaccurately?

(no subject)

Date: 2009-10-21 12:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elwe.livejournal.com
Probably the best way to think about it is this. In Catholic ecclessiology, the fundamental "glue" that holds the Church together is the relationship of "being in communion". The Church is made up of diocese (cells, you could say), which are collections of people who are all in communion with a bishop. These dioceses are held together by being in communion with the Pope (or, some would prefer to say, with the diocese of Rome, whose bishop is the Pope).

So to be able to take communion in a Catholic church, you need (as well as being in a state of grace) to be in communion with the Pope - that is, to be in communion with a bishop who is in communion with the Pope.

There has since the early 19th century been a Catholic-leaning movement within Anglicanism which at its "highest" end is theologically very close to Roman Catholicism. Throughout the 20th century there were efforts of this Anglo-Catholic wing of Anglicanism to achieve corporate reunion with Rome - so that their bishops, too, would be in communion with the Pope. The difficulty was doing with without being so absorbed that the Anglicans lose their distinctive identity.

These hopes for the entire Anglican Communion were basically destroyed by the liberal turn of the AC in the last forty years. But some of those Anglo-Catholics who were committed to the goal have kept up the talks with Rome. So the significance of todays announcement is that they have been successful: those Anglo-Catholics and the clergy will now be able to be in a relation of full communion with Rome while still maintaining themselves as a distinctive community.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-10-21 12:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] drspiff.livejournal.com
So it appears to be official. The Pope rather take in the backward dregs of the Anglican Church than try to get the progressive liberal american catholics back.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-10-21 10:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ovariance.livejournal.com
I'm on my way to Windsor Castle now. I'm going to reanimate King Henry VIII, put some food in him and head to Italy to kick some ass.


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