(no subject)

[eirias]

Random thought of the moment: Lots of people have observed that frustrated idealists often become cynics. I think this is because to a frustrated idealist, cynicism can be really comforting -- and not just in that "if I have low expectations I'll never be disappointed," raging self-pity way. Idealists may have expectations of the world that the world doesn't quite meet; there's this mass of data that conflicts with expectations and it can be excruciatingly uncomfortable for the kind of person who cares about that sort of thing. Cynicism takes that data and provides context -- in the thoughtless, yeah, maybe it'll be of the form "the world fucking sucks," but in the more thoughtful it will involve explanations for why the ideals don't play out the way you think they should and what the heck is motivating all this irritating human behavior, anyway.

This is why I've become confused a couple times recently when good friends have said, "You're startlingly cynical, which is puzzling because you're not simultaneously totally miserable like every other cynic I know." I actually find cynicism refreshing, because there is no way to solve problems you can't understand, and understanding a problem of human behavior is never accomplished by stubbornly insisting that your way is right. Cynicism allows me to put my ideals somewhere safe while the world behaves annoyingly. I don't have to sacrifice them on the altar of reality by smashing them repeatedly into a brick wall -- I'll be the one to decide if they should change. Clever people solve their problems by finding practical ways to turn the world they have into one they can live with, and that's what I will do, in my small way.

Comments

[drspiff.livejournal.com]

Isn't there a difference between cinicism and skepticism though? It is possible to be an optimist or idealist hoping for the best but at the same time be skeptical and weary of the world. I think that you meant "skeptic" rather than "cynic" because to me a cynic is idealogically driven (as you described an idealist) whereas a skeptic gathers data and applies reason to the world around them.

[eldan.livejournal.com]

I think that what these people are referring to is the way in which frustrated idealists often become complete, dyed-in-the-wool cynics, with the cynicism replacing the idealism entirely. It sounds like you've found a more balanced coping strategy than that, but I don't think this is very common.

[kirin]

Having been first introduced to you by your early posts to DaP, it'd take an awful lot to convince me that there's not a lot of idealist/optimist lurking in you. ;)

[eirias.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I don't exactly disagree.
The viewpoints I expressed then have become a bit more nuanced, I guess -- and my understanding of my own psyche and blimix's got some harsh reality checks within a couple of years of that debate! -- but at base my beliefs are the same. In some ways I might argue that those beliefs themselves were based as much on cynicism (people's judgments of others are self-serving, at bottom, and not to be trusted) as optimism (people are generally good and should be given the benefit of the doubt, not judged too harshly). I still believe both.

I guess what it comes down to is that I don't think the different traits I listed in my poll are necessarily opposites in any easy-to-define way. Their relationship to one another is complex, and it is most useful to carry around some of each, as they are all helpful tools in different situations. Even pessimism (my least favorite of the traits -- how I despise being thought of as a pessimist generally!) has definite uses, and I use it unconsciously all the time: e.g. downplaying my expectations just before an evaluation (the "gee, I felt really great coming out of that exam so why am I suddenly nervous five minutes before getting it back?" effect). IIRC this is thought of by psychologists as a pretty healthy coping mechanism.

[kirin]

Oh, i didn't think you did disagree; I imagined this sort of thing was much of the impetus between the LJ-impression vs other-sources-impression in your poll.

And I also agree that most of those things aren't really contradictory; I ticky'd a whole lot of boxes in that poll.

[vfoxy.livejournal.com]

Cynicism can be refreshing if you use it to not do the wrong thing the first time (assuming idealistic circumstances and best-case conditions in decision making, for example, especially decisions that include other people's behavior).

However, I find that the experience and application of cynicism is kind of unpredictable. Sometimes it's productive, sometimes debilitating and thoughtless. A person will trend one way or the other, but it's hard to imagine it would be uniform.

[knell.livejournal.com]

Speaking as an idealist, I have to say I really don't like how cynical I've become in the past few years...

[cognative.livejournal.com]

you still seem pretty idealistic to me. But maybe that's based on outdated data. Though based on personal experience I would say that people can compartmentalize those sorts of things pretty well. I would say I'm idealistic about some things (academia), cynical about others (politics) and skeptical in general.

[eirias.livejournal.com]

Compartmentalization -- very good point. I am pretty cynical about both politics and academia at this point (but still simultaneously idealistic about academia; politics, not so sure) but not cynical about my friends, for instance, or close human relationships in general. I just don't think it pays.