eirias: (Default)
eirias ([personal profile] eirias) wrote2005-05-25 03:28 pm

Etiquette

One thing I noticed about driving a few years back is that, while the rules are explicitly codified, most people seem to have a favorite few that they cling to at the expense of the rest. The favorite few vary considerably by person, of course - e.g., driving in the leftmost highway lane; following proper turn order at stop signs; correctly interpreting the "go ahead" sign from another driver - which means everyone gets to feel smug and self-righteous at everyone else, but at the price of occasionally being mad as hell at everyone else.

I think the same thing may apply to manners. There are two pieces of etiquette that seem to me not to be widely known, and the violation of each strikes me as a minor but pretty annoying offense.

1) Taking a seat on a crowded bus. One basic principle of etiquette that people seem to fall back on, when they're actually trying to be nice, is "if a desired thing is in limited quantity, leave it for someone else." I want to note that this should not apply to seats on a crowded bus - the kind of crowded bus where half the occupants are already standing. If you are on such a bus, and you are by an empty seat, park your butt in it. I don't care if you're getting off in one stop; I don't care if it's a seat for the elderly (unless, of course, someone elderly is actually present). The reason for this is that the only thing worse than having to stand for a 15-minute bus ride is having to stand squished between two complete strangers for a 15-minute bus ride. If you sit down, it gives us standees all a little more breathing room.

2) "When are you going to have children?" This is never an appropriate question to ask someone unless you are dating that person. Its slightly more palatable cousin, which omits the presumptive "When?", is still not acceptable in most situations. If you do not know a person's reproductive status, this is probably not by accident. There are cases in which people will not be offended at being asked, of course - for instance, good friends of mine are allowed to ask things like this without making me feel violated, whereas random new acquaintances I run into at a party are not - but the safest course of action is just to not ask.

The corollary to my wishing that others would follow these social rules is that there are likely to be other social rules I am either clueless about or unfairly contemptuous of. Anyone who feels memetically inclined, come up with a few of your favorites and post 'em. Maybe eventually we will have a polite society.

[identity profile] ksledge.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 01:11 am (UTC)(link)
I guess I realized "when are you going to have children?" is rude and/or a weird question to ask, but I didn't really think, "are you going to have children someday?" or rather "would you like to have children?" to be rude questions. It's also not THAT bad to ask someone you know wants to have children, "when are you going to have children?" (Granted they still might not know and get a little frustrated by the question, but given that you know they want kids and they're married, I don't think it's that bad of a question to ask.)

I totally know what you mean about the bus. Another annoying thing is when people crowd towards the front standing up, when there are a bazillion seats in the back. They don't want to take up the seats, but dudes you have to realize that when the bus is packed, you either need to move to the back and stand or move to the back and sit. When I rode the bus last year, I was always glad I got on way before most of the people so I didn't have to deal with that crap.

[identity profile] eirias.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 02:21 am (UTC)(link)
The reason I think "Are you going to have children?" is a rude question is twofold. First, it has to do with sex, and asking people you don't know well about their sex lives is just not appropriate unless there's some reason it might be pertinent to you - you're the person's gynecologist, or sex counselor, or you're both part of some group the explicit purpose of which is to talk about your sex lives, or some other odd circumstance. Second, it is a touchy subject for a lot of people. Some people want to have children but are infertile or have medical problems; some people want to have children but their partners don't; some people are wrestling the "children/career/avocation" demon; some people are just sick to death of having to defend their choice not to have children to parents and whoever else. In some cases it's kind of like asking a person who is single and lonely when s/he is going to get married. Well-meaning, but rude nonetheless.

I agree, if you know for certain that a close friend wants children and it's not a touchy subject for him or her, the rule against asking about it can be waived. Generally speaking, because it's not a touchy subject for me, I don't really mind questions unless they are very clearly from someone who should not be asking. But no matter who asks I do feel a sort of protective instinct toward my fiance, because it strikes me as the sort of thing one should not discuss publicly until getting the OK from your partner to talk about it publicly, and it's just never come up between us.

[identity profile] ksledge.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 03:02 am (UTC)(link)
yeah, I think we actually agree. I guess I'd only ask these sorts of questions if I knew the person pretty well, and definitely only the "when" question if I knew both people in the relationship wanted to have kids eventually and in the reasonably near future. Like, I don't feel weird asking my sister "when" 'cause I know she wants to have them pretty soon. (and she's my sister!!)

[identity profile] harleybitch.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 11:40 am (UTC)(link)
The thing that annoys me about it is not that they are asking if I want children, but rather they are asking when I am going to have them and are bitchy when I say 'im not'. It bothers me that we have not adapted to a day and age where not everyone 'has' to have a child. One time a girl asked and after I said I didnt want children she said 'that's so mean' I said 'no having children that you dont want is mean'. people suck.

[identity profile] thekat03.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 02:02 pm (UTC)(link)
wait... it's mean to not do your part in slowing population growth? *blink*

[identity profile] eirias.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 02:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I don't get it, either.

It's true that some intentionally childfree people are... well... mean, I guess. The kind of people who make snide comments about how all children are hairless rats who should be subjected to postpartum abortions and how all mothers are good-for-nothing brainless sellouts who gave up personal development at 20, etc. etc. It's possible that this weird girl has run into too many of them, I suppose. But it's pretty clear to anyone who knows her that [livejournal.com profile] harleybitch is not that kind of childfree person; and it's also pretty clear that there are some seriously uncool people on the other side, the "if you don't have children, you're selfish and evil and not a Real Woman and you can go to hell RIGHT NOW" people. It's also possible that the weird girl was one of these. Or maybe she's just clueless; that's a popular option too.

I don't know. I don't see why people care so much about other people's choices. I definitely have my own opinions on certain things, but as long as another person's family decisions don't directly affect me, who am I to say what's best?

[identity profile] ksledge.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 02:32 pm (UTC)(link)
personally, I think it's kind of selfish to HAVE children. Granted, I still want them, but yeah it's saying, "I want MY genes to pass on." And it's contributing to overpopluation. I don't see how people could think it's "mean" to not have children!

[identity profile] thekat03.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 02:36 pm (UTC)(link)
i wonder what be appropriate to say to parents who want to be grandparents and ask that question of their kids... it does affect them, so i see why they care, but it's still really annoying. i'm so glad tod's sister's pregnant (:

[identity profile] harleybitch.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 03:25 pm (UTC)(link)
nah that just means instead of being asked when you will have children everyone will tell you that children are wonderful and something you should definately have. and then you get the 'when you have children' we will give you our kids old toys, equipment, parts manual, etc...

[identity profile] eldan.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 03:31 pm (UTC)(link)
they come with a manual and spare parts? That doesn't sound so scary then....

[identity profile] thekat03.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 04:17 pm (UTC)(link)
yep, but they come in a language you don't speak, and only have crappy translations d:

[identity profile] eldan.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 04:37 pm (UTC)(link)
oh, I'm used to that

[identity profile] leora.livejournal.com 2005-05-26 05:31 pm (UTC)(link)
If it makes you feel any better, and it probably won't, probably many of the same people do the exact opposite thing to people with serious disabilities. I've heard so many horror stories of people with disabilities who choose to have children and then get hell from everyone around them. So, I bet a lot of the people who would argue that a childfree person is somehow being bad would also argue that a disabled person should remain childfree. Basically, other people want to decide who does and doesn't reproduce, and for some reason think they should have a say.

[identity profile] ukelele.livejournal.com 2005-05-27 12:45 am (UTC)(link)
Strangely, that doesn't make me feel better at all.