Etiquette

[eirias]

One thing I noticed about driving a few years back is that, while the rules are explicitly codified, most people seem to have a favorite few that they cling to at the expense of the rest. The favorite few vary considerably by person, of course - e.g., driving in the leftmost highway lane; following proper turn order at stop signs; correctly interpreting the "go ahead" sign from another driver - which means everyone gets to feel smug and self-righteous at everyone else, but at the price of occasionally being mad as hell at everyone else.

I think the same thing may apply to manners. There are two pieces of etiquette that seem to me not to be widely known, and the violation of each strikes me as a minor but pretty annoying offense.

1) Taking a seat on a crowded bus. One basic principle of etiquette that people seem to fall back on, when they're actually trying to be nice, is "if a desired thing is in limited quantity, leave it for someone else." I want to note that this should not apply to seats on a crowded bus - the kind of crowded bus where half the occupants are already standing. If you are on such a bus, and you are by an empty seat, park your butt in it. I don't care if you're getting off in one stop; I don't care if it's a seat for the elderly (unless, of course, someone elderly is actually present). The reason for this is that the only thing worse than having to stand for a 15-minute bus ride is having to stand squished between two complete strangers for a 15-minute bus ride. If you sit down, it gives us standees all a little more breathing room.

2) "When are you going to have children?" This is never an appropriate question to ask someone unless you are dating that person. Its slightly more palatable cousin, which omits the presumptive "When?", is still not acceptable in most situations. If you do not know a person's reproductive status, this is probably not by accident. There are cases in which people will not be offended at being asked, of course - for instance, good friends of mine are allowed to ask things like this without making me feel violated, whereas random new acquaintances I run into at a party are not - but the safest course of action is just to not ask.

The corollary to my wishing that others would follow these social rules is that there are likely to be other social rules I am either clueless about or unfairly contemptuous of. Anyone who feels memetically inclined, come up with a few of your favorites and post 'em. Maybe eventually we will have a polite society.

Comments

[thekat03.livejournal.com]

before you'd mentioned #2, i had never thought about whether or not it was a polite thing to ask, but i try not to ask it anyways, since around half my female friends prefer to be indefinitely child-free (not many of my male friends have explicitly stated a preference), and i don't want anyone asking me in return (since i'd rather wait until i have time and/or i'm married, and i am getting married after la, who is getting married in.... 45 years, i think).

[eirias.livejournal.com]

:) It's always good to be cautious! Yeah, a lot of people don't know this one (and I didn't know until I was well into adulthood, to tell the truth).

[ukelele.livejournal.com]

Personally, my favorite driving rule is "don't hit the bicyclist", but I know opinions vary on that ;).

[madmanatw.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm a fan of that one as well.

[ukelele.livejournal.com]

Wow, that icon is eerie.

[madmanatw.livejournal.com]

Bwahahaha.

[trygve.livejournal.com]

Well that one should go without saying, honestly. I really wish more would be done to encourage "be *courteous* to the cyclist"! They can not hit me and still be a collossal asshole.

[ukelele.livejournal.com]

Alas, I know this too well.

[dmw7.livejournal.com]

"When are you getting married?" when no such plans have been announced. If the people involved aren't engaged yet, then this question should not be asked.

[eirias.livejournal.com]

Oh, ditto! G & I went to a wedding last summer and some TOTAL STRANGER asked us this, within an hour of meeting us. I mean, she did it because she was too lame to either make normal conversation or make peace with quiet, so you kind of had to pity her for being that lame, but it still rubbed me way the wrong way.

[ukelele.livejournal.com]

"Oh, we already are! I mean, to other people. Don't tell my husband you saw us here, 'kay?"

[thekat03.livejournal.com]

i find it annoying when people ask that when i am engaged, because tod and i chose to get engaged with no plans of getting married anytime soon to give my parents plenty of time to get used to the idea.

[trygve.livejournal.com]

Sorry!

[thekat03.livejournal.com]

that's ok. i just annoy you and vinay and various others in return (:

[ex-miang438.livejournal.com]

#2 becomes significantly less minor when the asker decides to argue with you because he or she doesn't care for your answer. I lost a (supposedly close) friend over that one already, and while most people know better than to ask in the first place, oh my have I heard some horror stories.

I didn't know #1, however, and was pleased to make use of it this afternoon when the 61 was far more crowded than usual. Thanks for the edification! :D

[cognative.livejournal.com]

Try this one on for size.
What's the seating heirarchy on a bus? Elderly people? Women with small kids? Small kids? Elederly people with canes? Pregnant women? Elderly people with small kids and canes?
As a young male in good health I'm pretty much the bottom of the barell. I've had people give me looks like they expected me to be "polite" and give them my seat. It can be a tough call to make.

And about the people who ask you when you're getting maried/engaged/pregnant. They probably just assume that you're on the get married, pop out some kids, buy a house in the burbs, get a minivan track. You know since that's that normal thing to do ;)

[eirias.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's a good point. I don't know what to tell you - anyone else?

I may well have gotten such looks too, though I am generally too oblivious once I am actually in a seat on a bus to notice :/. I'm good about keeping my eye out when I'm in the special fold-down seats for wheelchairs & strollers, but otherwise I suck at that.

[cos]

How much stuff you're carrying figures prominently in determining the seating hierarchy.

[cognative.livejournal.com]

True. Once a woman with three small kids including a stroller got on. Everyone just jumped out of their seats.
(I was way in the back)

[trygve.livejournal.com]

Being a young healthy individual, I tend to rank myself a much lower priority than all of the above, and just let them sort out the rest. =)

[leora.livejournal.com]

People with disabilities
The elderly (many of whom will qualify in the first, but often are too stubborn to admit it)
people with small children
people with lots of packages

And I would prefer if healthy people would not take the last seat for the disabled on a bus or train. Some people with disabilities have difficulty asking for them, and not all disabilities are visible. Even when disabilities are visible, sometimes no one offers a seat. And that seat can make a huge difference, not just right then, but it can affect someone's level of ability and pain for an entire week.

I am becoming a lot more touchy about able-bodied people using spaces specifically reserved for the disabled now that I have a much more intimate understanding of the issues involved. Although mostly I save my ire for anyone who has no disability and uses a handicapped parking space.

As to etiquette rules that don't involve legal violations - I wish more people realized that it is rude to comment about what someone does or does not eat. You are supposed to politely ignore what they do with the contents of their plate. This means not telling them that FOO is bad for them, or telling them that they are skin and bones, or insisting that they absolutely have to try the turkey and the chocolate cake.

[aquamindy.livejournal.com]

Oh honey, don't even get me started on the "When are you going to have children?" question.

I make it a running joke now with friends, where on there wedding day as part of the recieving line I ask. People don't believe me, but once you have that wedding band on, no matter how often you're asked before your married, it goes up ten-fold.

If I got a nickel for everytime I've been asked, Mike and I would own a villa in Tuscany.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Have you considered replying with, "Children! I knew I forgot to do something. Could you please excuse me for a few minutes so I can get right on that?"

[ksledge.livejournal.com]

I guess I realized "when are you going to have children?" is rude and/or a weird question to ask, but I didn't really think, "are you going to have children someday?" or rather "would you like to have children?" to be rude questions. It's also not THAT bad to ask someone you know wants to have children, "when are you going to have children?" (Granted they still might not know and get a little frustrated by the question, but given that you know they want kids and they're married, I don't think it's that bad of a question to ask.)

I totally know what you mean about the bus. Another annoying thing is when people crowd towards the front standing up, when there are a bazillion seats in the back. They don't want to take up the seats, but dudes you have to realize that when the bus is packed, you either need to move to the back and stand or move to the back and sit. When I rode the bus last year, I was always glad I got on way before most of the people so I didn't have to deal with that crap.

[eirias.livejournal.com]

The reason I think "Are you going to have children?" is a rude question is twofold. First, it has to do with sex, and asking people you don't know well about their sex lives is just not appropriate unless there's some reason it might be pertinent to you - you're the person's gynecologist, or sex counselor, or you're both part of some group the explicit purpose of which is to talk about your sex lives, or some other odd circumstance. Second, it is a touchy subject for a lot of people. Some people want to have children but are infertile or have medical problems; some people want to have children but their partners don't; some people are wrestling the "children/career/avocation" demon; some people are just sick to death of having to defend their choice not to have children to parents and whoever else. In some cases it's kind of like asking a person who is single and lonely when s/he is going to get married. Well-meaning, but rude nonetheless.

I agree, if you know for certain that a close friend wants children and it's not a touchy subject for him or her, the rule against asking about it can be waived. Generally speaking, because it's not a touchy subject for me, I don't really mind questions unless they are very clearly from someone who should not be asking. But no matter who asks I do feel a sort of protective instinct toward my fiance, because it strikes me as the sort of thing one should not discuss publicly until getting the OK from your partner to talk about it publicly, and it's just never come up between us.

[ksledge.livejournal.com]

yeah, I think we actually agree. I guess I'd only ask these sorts of questions if I knew the person pretty well, and definitely only the "when" question if I knew both people in the relationship wanted to have kids eventually and in the reasonably near future. Like, I don't feel weird asking my sister "when" 'cause I know she wants to have them pretty soon. (and she's my sister!!)

[harleybitch.livejournal.com]

The thing that annoys me about it is not that they are asking if I want children, but rather they are asking when I am going to have them and are bitchy when I say 'im not'. It bothers me that we have not adapted to a day and age where not everyone 'has' to have a child. One time a girl asked and after I said I didnt want children she said 'that's so mean' I said 'no having children that you dont want is mean'. people suck.

[thekat03.livejournal.com]

wait... it's mean to not do your part in slowing population growth? *blink*

[eirias.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't get it, either.

It's true that some intentionally childfree people are... well... mean, I guess. The kind of people who make snide comments about how all children are hairless rats who should be subjected to postpartum abortions and how all mothers are good-for-nothing brainless sellouts who gave up personal development at 20, etc. etc. It's possible that this weird girl has run into too many of them, I suppose. But it's pretty clear to anyone who knows her that harleybitch is not that kind of childfree person; and it's also pretty clear that there are some seriously uncool people on the other side, the "if you don't have children, you're selfish and evil and not a Real Woman and you can go to hell RIGHT NOW" people. It's also possible that the weird girl was one of these. Or maybe she's just clueless; that's a popular option too.

I don't know. I don't see why people care so much about other people's choices. I definitely have my own opinions on certain things, but as long as another person's family decisions don't directly affect me, who am I to say what's best?

[ksledge.livejournal.com]

personally, I think it's kind of selfish to HAVE children. Granted, I still want them, but yeah it's saying, "I want MY genes to pass on." And it's contributing to overpopluation. I don't see how people could think it's "mean" to not have children!

[thekat03.livejournal.com]

i wonder what be appropriate to say to parents who want to be grandparents and ask that question of their kids... it does affect them, so i see why they care, but it's still really annoying. i'm so glad tod's sister's pregnant (:

[harleybitch.livejournal.com]

nah that just means instead of being asked when you will have children everyone will tell you that children are wonderful and something you should definately have. and then you get the 'when you have children' we will give you our kids old toys, equipment, parts manual, etc...

[eldan.livejournal.com]

they come with a manual and spare parts? That doesn't sound so scary then....

[thekat03.livejournal.com]

yep, but they come in a language you don't speak, and only have crappy translations d:

[eldan.livejournal.com]

oh, I'm used to that

[leora.livejournal.com]

If it makes you feel any better, and it probably won't, probably many of the same people do the exact opposite thing to people with serious disabilities. I've heard so many horror stories of people with disabilities who choose to have children and then get hell from everyone around them. So, I bet a lot of the people who would argue that a childfree person is somehow being bad would also argue that a disabled person should remain childfree. Basically, other people want to decide who does and doesn't reproduce, and for some reason think they should have a say.

[ukelele.livejournal.com]

Strangely, that doesn't make me feel better at all.

[eldan.livejournal.com]

I think that's a pretty good characterisation of why driving makes so many people (myself definitely included) much more irritable than they are the rest of the time. I'd just add in one detail though: the courtesy rules are made all the more important because of their safety implications.

OTOH

[cognative.livejournal.com]

I feel like what's considered rude can be very subjective. I know people who feel it's perfectly fine to ask and answer questions like "when are you having children?". There's no place that such rules are written down. It seems like a lot of things are just pet peeves, which doesn't make them wrong. It's just you can't expect everyone to have the same standards as you. It's not like it's something everyone just magically should know.

For example, my own personal pet peeve is when people ask me something like "what church do you go to?". This comes from living in the bible belt where it's common to just assume everyone is Christian. Having to explain to people "No I'm not just lazy about going to church I'm actually not Christian" gets old and annoying quickly.