(no subject)

[eirias]

Inspired by a sex scandal and some conversations elsewhere, here's my first poll. I'm just curious what the norms for these things are in my social group. I'd prefer only people I actually know to fill this out, but I'm leaving it open to all so that you can fill it out anonymously if you choose.

[Poll #451985]

Comments

[ex-miang438.livejournal.com]

I can answer two of your questions in one shot, I think... :D

As one of the people who brought up the term "heteronormative," I was using it specifically to refer to the "base system" of sexual conquest, not to sexual activity in general. For one, it's something that's traditionally been said by boys to other boys, within the language of conquest -- "I got to third base with her last night! Whoo!" -- although I suppose in more recent years girls use it too...I never did, I just used the colloquial terms for the acts to describe what I'd been doing. :D

At any rate, the "base system" as I learned it (perhaps, as Rich mentioned, it differs by region) was:
1st base - kissing
2nd base - hand-on-chest action (though there were local differences on whether that meant over-the-bra or under-the-bra)
3rd base - hand-on-genital action (I guess in other regions this is replaced with oral sex? Anyway that's how I learned it)
home plate - full-on PIV intercourse

So you can see why this is a heteronormative system -- unless I've been sorely misled by my gay friends, two boys aren't going to see touching each others' chests as a huge hallmark of sexual activity; and for lesbians, restricting the notion of "sex" to PIV intercourse is completely missing the point.

[cognative.livejournal.com]

It's true this version of the system is definitly built on the assumption of guy on gal action. Party why we forward thinking individuals spent much time coming up with more elaborate and amusing metaphors for sexual activity ;)

[ex-miang438.livejournal.com]

I want to hear about this "dot system" of yours sometime. =D

[darlox.livejournal.com]

*shrug* I dunno... I think the bases as a meterstick of activity are probably just obscuring the actual issue. Unless you've got a couple of 1st-class hornballs that go from zero to 69 in under 10 seconds, there's going to be SOME natural progression of activity.

I never recall kissing being a "base". I seem to conjure up Jr. High memories of 1=top, 2=bottom, 3=oral, 4=the old bump'n'grind.

Kissing, especially, opens this conversation up much wider than it already is. From a cultural perspective, 1st base by that definition is how you say hello! (Of course, just because I'm not aware of a culture where crotch-grabbing isn't a commonly accepted greeting, doesn't mean there ISN'T one, I guess...) ;)

[ex-miang438.livejournal.com]

Eeep...the (I thought!) automatic implication there was French kissing. If it were just chaste closed-mouth kissing, I'd really have to take issue with the poll results, 'cause I did that in preschool...

There is certainly going to be some natural progression, whatever order it winds up being in. I'm just saying the "base" classification as a benchmark for that progression comes with its own issues. If the poll had been "how old before kissing / top-touching / bottom-touching / oral / penetration (with whatever parts or devices)", I still would have responded to the poll as I did, but I probably wouldn't have left my first comment to this post. ^_^

I call it knocking boots

[cognative.livejournal.com]

I kissed a girl (closed mouth) in first grade all the time. On the hand. She liked it, so I kept doing it. Once the authorities got wind of it I got in trouble for it.

I just had a waaay too long convo with someone who just couldn't get around the fact that kissing is considered differently in some cultures. She thought it was just plain wrong for people to just it as a greeting. She thought it was just automatically sexual and therefore inappropraite.

The base metaphor is just an aside. Though there is the whole issue of what's considered sexual and how sexual. Some things are considered more advanced than others.

[ukelele.livejournal.com]

I don't think anyone is saying that the concept of a natural progression is heteronormative; I think they're saying that the particular activities chosen for each base only make sense in a heterosexual context (and thus imply that we're all heterosexual here).